Preamble

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.]

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

LONDON MIDLAND AND SCOTTISH RAILWAY ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL

Read the Third time, and passed;

Oral Answers to Questions — NATIONAL WAR EFFORT

Women, South-East London (Part-Time Employment)

Mr. Brooke: asked the Minister of Labour whether there is any substantial number of unfilled vacancies for the part-time employment of women in South-East London?

The Minister of Labour (Mr. Ernest Bevin): No, Sir, except in Bermondsey, where the circumstances are exceptional.

Women Workers (Wage Claims)

Mr. Kennedy: asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware of disquiet in the war industries regarding Government policy on the wages claim of women employed in the engineering and other trades for equal treatment with men in view of the likely further comb-out of men in those industries; and whether Government policy will establish the principle of equal pay for equal work?

Mr. Bevin: Wage claims in respect of women workers should, like other wage claims, be dealt with through industrial negotiating machinery, with recourse to arbitration if necessary.

Sir Robert Young: Can my right hon. Friend say whether the piece-rates are the same in these matters?

Mr. Bevin: In certain cases, but much of the work is, of course, new. The piece-rate fixing system is the same in both cases.

Austrians

Mr. Mander: asked the Minister of Labour whether he will consider the advisability of extending the panels set up to advise the Ministry of Labour in the calling-up of Czechoslovak, Belgian and other Allied subjects to the case of Austrians?

Mr. Bevin: The panels to which my hon. Friend refers are drawn from officials of my Department and of the Allied Governments concerned. My hon. Friend will appreciate that the position as regards Austrians is not analogous.

Mr. Mander: In view of the very special position of Austrians, does the Minister not consider he might sympathetically consider the possibility of extending these panels to them too?

Mr. Bevin: My hon. Friend will appreciate that in dealing with Allied problems, I must synchronise my action with that of the Foreign Secretary. I try to keep in step as much as I can.

Mr. Mander: Will the Minister consider getting in touch with the Foreign Secretary?

Mr. Bevin: We are constantly in touch.

Miss Rathbone: Could the Minister not also extend these panels to victims of Nazi oppression of German nationality who have been repudiated by the present German Government?

Mr. Bevin: So far as the International Labour Force is concerned, while these people are not dealt with on the basis of Allied Government arrangements, it must not be assumed that they are neglected. They are dealt with through the International Labour Branch of my Ministry.

Absenteeism

Mr. Foster: asked the Minister of Labour the number of miners prosecuted in the courts for absenteeism and loss of output under the Mining Industry Essential Work Order; the number fined; and the number sent to terms of imprisonment?

Mr. Bevin: The figures asked for up to the end of August, 1942, are as follow:—The number prosecuted for absence from work without reasonable excuse or for persistent lateness was 572.


Of these, 430 were fined 115 sentenced to imprisonment and 12 bound over. Fifteen cases were dismissed. The number prosecuted for failing to comply with lawful and reasonable orders or for persistent behaviour at work impeding effective production was 3. Of these 2 were fined and I sentenced to imprisonment. The number prosecuted for leaving without permission was 37. Of these, 20 were fined, 13 sentenced to imprisonment and 3 bound over. One case was dismissed.

Mr. Foster: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in these cases the miner is at the mercy of local magistrates who have no knowledge of the work in the mining industry and who may be influenced by their patriotic feelings; also does he consider that sending men to prison is the most effective way of dealing with this problem of absenteeism?

Mr. Bevin: I must remind my hon. Friend that in these cases affecting miners, I act in consultation with the Ministry of Fuel and on the advice of pit production committees. On that footing, after they have dealt with the cases, and they report a case as being one in which there is absolute refusal to obey the discipline of their own men, I am asked to take action. I must then carry out the law. The final sanction under the Defence Regulations is imprisonment, and I cannot interfere with that.

Several hon. Members: rose—

Mr. Speaker: The Minister has answered the Question on the Paper.

Mr. Simmonds: asked the Minister of Labour the approximate percentage of the scheduled hours which employees in the light engineering industry failed to work over the most recent convenient period?

Mr. Bevin: I presume my hon. Friend refers in his Question to the extent of absenteeism in the light engineering industry. I regret that the specific information for which he asks is not available in my Department.

Mr. Simmonds: Does not the Minister think that in order that this matter may be assessed more accurately, it is important that his Department should obtain statistics from industry?

Mr. Bevin: The statistics of actual absenteeism are collected by the Production Department.

Mr. George Griffiths: Is it not possible, say next week, for the Minister to bring in an Order in Council that all workmen shall be chained to their benches, so that they will not require to go home to have any sleep at all?

Mr. Hannah: Is not that rather reactionary?

Mr. Simmonds: asked the Minister of Labour in how many cases from 1st July, 1942, up to the latest convenient date have National Service officers in the Birmingham area been requested by works committees to take proceedings against habitual absentees or latecomers; in how many cases during that period have such proceedings been instituted; and the number of convictions which have been recorded?

Mr. Bevin: I am obtaining the requested information and will communicate with my hon. Friend.

Shipbuildingand Allied Industries (Women)

Mr. Neil Maclean: asked the Minister of Labour whether the programme for employing women in the shipbuilding and allied industries is now in operation; and whether he will now instruct employment exchanges to give the necessary green cards to women who have an offer of employment in a shipyard or workshop engaged in manufacture for the shipyards?

Mr. Bevin: The answer to the first part of the Question is, "Yes, Sir." As regards the second part of the Question, it is not now necessary for women over the age of 30 to obtain green cards before taking employment. As regards others, I cannot undertake that green cards would be issued irrespective of circumstances, since this would destroy all control over the supply of labour, but they are given in all proper cases.

Mr. Maclean: Is the Minister not aware that even last week girls who had received an offer of employment in the shipyards and who went for green cards were refused green cards or were given them only as temporary workers? These girls come of shipbuilding families. Will he not reconsider his answer?

Mr. Bevin: No, Sir; the point raises the whole basis of our man-power policy, and I cannot make exceptions. I must have the use of the mobile women, and men, in the districts where they are most urgently needed.

Mr. Maclean: Has the Minister himself, or those for whom he is responsible, not stated, in a leaflet issued by the Ministry, that the demand for female labour in the heavy industries has practically been met? Therefore, why should this policy be contiaued? The leaflet relates to "Wartime employment of women in shipbuilding and allied industries." It was issued by the Ministry in last week's "Ministry of Labour Gazette."

Mr. Bevin: I am not aware of the leaflet without looking at it; our Department, like others, issues so many of them. But I repeat, with emphasis, that on this question of utilising the mobile personnel of the country in places where preference and priorities are decided, I cannot yield on that point.

Mr. Buchanan: I understood the Minister to say that this refers only to women under 30. Is he aware that women over 30 have been refused the green card in Glasgow for engineering work? Would he not reconsider the case of women over 30 in this matter?

Mr. Bevin: If the hon. Member will, send me particulars of cases where this Regulation has not been properly carried out, I will look into them.

CATERING TRADES (REGULATION)

Commander Bower: asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware of the large numbers of small employers and one-man businesses in the catering industry who are now in the Fighting Services or in war industries and who are therefore unable to give proper consideration to his proposals for controlling the catering industry; and what steps he proposes to take to obtain their views before taking further action in the matter?

Mr. Bevin: In accordance with the normal practice in matters of this kind, I am obtaining the views of employers through representative employers' organisations.

Commander Bower: Is it not very desirable that the voice of the small men in the industry, many of whom may not be represented by such organisations, should be considered, especially in view of the fact that so many of them are the pioneers of all forms of private enterprise?

Mr. Bevin: As far as I can gather, this trade is pretty well organised on the employers' side. The trouble is it is not well organised on the workpeople's side. That is what makes it so difficult to consult both sides.

Mr. Thorne: I take it there is no objection to one-man businesses joining an employers' organisation?

Mr. Bevin: Not at all.

MILITARY SERVICE (TUBERCULOUS MEN)

Mr. J. Henderson: asked the Minister of Labour whether his attention has been directed to a resolution adopted by the Manchester City Council protesting against the calling-up for the Armed Forces of persons known to be suffering from tuberculosis; and what action does he propose to take in the matter?

Mr. Rhys Davies: asked the Minister of Labour whether he has considered the protest from the Manchester City Council to the effect that, within the city 328 cases discharged from the Forces have been referred to the local health authority for treatment for tuberculosis; that 39' cases of men suffering from that disease were known locally before enlistment and that four such cases were known to his Ministry before being called up; and what reply he has tendered to the Council's protest?

Mr. Bevin: I have not yet received the resolution referred to, but inquiry is being made.

Mr. Henderson: Is the Minister aware that during the discussion by the Manchester City Council it was stated that 328 men had been discharged from the Forces suffering from tuberculosis, that 39 were known to be suffering from tuberculosis prior to enlistment, and that four were even notified to his Ministry prior to enlistment? Does not that represent a shameful state of affairs that does harm to the national cause?

Mr. Bevin: I have not read the report. Until I received this Question I did not know that the discussion had taken place. I have sent for a full report of what was said, and I cannot prejudge the matter. When I have the report I must consult the medical boards which passed these men.

Mr. Henderson: It is over a week since this Question was handed in?

Mr. Rhys Davies: Why does the Minister not adopt a suggestion which has been made very often? As the full medical records of the vast majority of men joining the Forces are to be found in approved society records, why does he not consult them before the men are taken into the Forces?

Mr. Bevin: My hon. Friend knows there is nothing which represents such poor information on medical conditions as approved society certificates.

Mr. Davies: The right hon. Gentleman has been a secretary of one?

Mr. Bevin: Yes, I have.

Oral Answers to Questions — PUBLIC HEALTH

Northfield NursingHome, Rugby (Staff)

Mr. William Brown: asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that the Northfield Nursing Home, Rugby, is in danger of having to close down through lack of staff; that this is the only private nursing home in the town and that the local hospital has no maternity block; and whether, in these circumstances, he will cause labour to be directed to the nursing home in order to enable it to continue to function?

Mr. Bevin: I am making inquiries immediately and will write to my hon. Friend.

Mass Radiography Apparatus

Mr. Thorne: asked the Minister of Health whether he can give any information about the mass radiology in the cure of tuberculosis and diseases of the chest; what is the cost of the apparatus; are local authorities called up to pay the Purchase Tax; and whether the Government will make a grant or allow a special loan to be made for the purchase of these instruments?

The Minister of Health (Mr. Ernest Brown): On the first part of the Question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the recent report of the Committee of the Medical Research Council on tuberculosis in war-time. The production of the standard apparatus has not yet reached a stage at which its cost can be closely determined, but it is expected to be in the region of £1,500. Apparatus of this kind is not, I understand, subject to Purchase Tax. It is not proposed to make special grants towards this particular item of cost to those county councils and county borough councils who will be concerned, but, as indicated in the statement which I made in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths) on 8th October, substantial Exchequer assistance is being given towards the cost of the treatment of tuberculosis.

Sir Francis Fremantle: Is the scheme for training doctors and mechanics to deal with this most complicated apparatus in full swing and able to keep pace with the supply of instruments?

Mr. Brown: That point was dealt with in the answer I gave. The answer is, "Yes."

Milk (Pasteurisation)

Sir Percy Hurd: asked the Minister of Health the percentage incidence of tuberculosis attributable to animal disease in London, where most of the milk is pasteurised, as compared with areas in which there is little or no pasteurisation?

Mr. E. Brown: I have not at hand information in the form asked for by my hon. Friend. I am making inquiries, and win communicate with him as soon as possible.

Dr. Edith Summerskill: Although the Minister has not the exact figures, would he make it clear to the House that, as his medical advisers have repeatedly stated, pasteurisation will reduce the incidence of tuberculosis?

Mr. Leach: Is the Minister aware that there are other opinions on that point? Does he like this cooked stuff?

Mr. Brown: I am quite aware that there are varying opinions.

Dr. Summerskill: asked the Minister of Health whether he proposes to give full publicity to the statement in the Report of


the Ministry of Health to the effect that only pasturised milk, or milk boiled at home if pasteurised milk cannot be bought, should be drunk?

Mr. Brown: The Report has already received a good deal of publicity, and I hope my hon. Friend's Question will draw further attention to it. The advice referred to has several times been given publicly from the Ministry, and I shall not neglect to repeat it on appropriate occasions.

Dr. Surmmerskill: Is the Minister going to adopt positive methods similar to those which have been given publicity in regard to immunisation?

Mr. Brown: I have answered the Question.

Dr. Summerskill: Will the Minister assure me that the failure to adopt those methods is not the result of his desire to protect those interests which are selling infected milk?

Mr. Brown: My hon. Friend may have that assurance and may put the suspicion out of her mind. I am concerned solely with the health of the people.

Dr. Summerskill: So am I.

Commander Locker-Lampson: Is it not quite legal to sell infected milk, but illegal to sell infected water?

Sir Percy Harris: Is it not a fact that T.T. milk can be sold without pasteurisation?

Diphtheria (Immunisation)

Mr. James Griffiths: asked the Minister of Health the number of cases of diphtheria notified during this year; whether this shows an increase; whether the proportion of cases proving fatal shows an increase; and what steps are taken, or contemplated, to combat this disease?

Mr. Brown: The number of cases of diphtheria notified during the first three-quarters of this year was 29,939. This represents a decrease of about 6,500 on the corresponding period last year. The provisional mortality figures for the first half of 1942 show a decrease of 8 per cent. on the corresponding figures for 1941. As the disease is most prevalent

among children, it is being combated by the Government's policy of advocating immunisation of all children under 15, which has already resulted in the immunisation of over 3,000,000 children since the beginning of 1940, and the expansion of which is being actively pursued.

Professor A. V. Hill: Does ray right hon. Friend expect to get sufficient children immunised by propaganda alone, against the counter-propaganda of interested agencies financed by sentimental old women?

Mr. Brown: Yes, I expect propaganda methods to be sufficient.

Mr. Leach: Is the Minister aware that all his efforts so far have not reduced the death rate at all?

Dermatitis

Mr. Bernard Taylor: asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department the number of miners in Nottinghamshire certified by the certifying surgeons as suffering with dermatitis during the past 12 months; the number of cases examined by the medical referee on appeal by the employers; and in how many cases has the decision of the certifying surgeons been reversed by the medical referee during the same period?

The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Herbert Morrison): I regret that the information asked for in the first part of the Question is not available. The number of cases examined by the medical referee on appeal by the employers, during the 12 months ending 30th September last, in all employments was 80, of which number 54 were allowed. The returns do not show how many of these cases were miners.

FACTORY ACCIDENTS

Mr. David Adams: asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the rise in reportable accidents in factories for the year 1941, fatal accidents having increased by 20 per cent. and non-fatal by 17 per cent., he has considered the desirability of setting up safety committees in factories; and whether these will be ancillary to production committees?

Mr. Bevin: Safety committees in factories with a substantial number of accidents have been advocated for many


years and have often proved highly successful, but merely to set up a committee without the active support of the management and its members may not be the best method of promoting safety. The best safety organisation for a particular factory, including its relationship to any production committee, is a matter for consideration between the management and representatives of the workers.

Mr. Adams: Do I understand that the Minister is pursuing this matter in that direction?

Mr. Bevin: Yes, I have, if I may say so, been pursuing it for years.

UNEMPLOYMENT FUND AND ASSISTANCE BOARD (EXPENDITURE)

Sir Herbert Williams: asked the Minister of Labour whether he will publish monthly in the "Ministry of Labour Gazette" the receipts and expenditure of the Unemployment Fund and the expenditure of the Assistance Board in respect of unemployment?

Mr. Bevin: These particulars were so published up to last March. It was then decided, in the interests of economy of paper, to publish them once a quarter. The next quarterly return will appear in the "Ministry of Labour Gazette" for October.

UNITED STATES MILITARY PERSONNEL (MARRIAGES)

Lieut.-Colonel Wickham: asked the Minister of Health (1) whether he is aware that no American military personnel on duty in any foreign country may marry without written permission issued under the authority of the United States Army commander and that an American soldier who marries without such approval will be liable to trial by court-martial; and whether he will make sure that all registrars of marriages are aware of these facts;
(2) whether he will inform registrars of marriage and women's organisations that in the event of an American soldier on foreign service in this country being given permission to marry no special living arrangements will be made; no marriage allowance will be payable or privileges granted in lieu thereof; and the wife will

not become a United States citizen by virtue of her marriage nor will she be allowed to accompany her husband on change of station or on his return to the United States of America?

Mr. E. Brown: I am aware of the facts stated. Superintendent registrars and registrars of marriages have already received instuctions as to the necessity for the permission of the United States military authorities to the marriage of United States military personnel in this country. Notice is being given to those officers of the disabilities attaching to the wife of a United States soldier who marries, even by permission, while on service in this country, particulars of which became available after the issue of the instructions referred to. It is, however, far more important that the public should be widely informed of the nature of these disabilities; and I have no doubt that the hon. and gallant Member's Questions and this reply will contribute materially to this object.

Lieut.-Colonel Wickham: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I put down these Questions in all good will to our gallant Allies and solely to ensure that our girls should know exactly what the position was before embarking on a course which would affect the whole of their future lives?

Mr. Brown: I am sure that that will be understood, and I think my answer shows that I fully understand it.

Professor Savory: Is the Minister aware that girls marrying American soldiers do not become American citizens, and will not be eligible for marriage and other allowances, and that they will not be allowed to enter the United States, but will be held up at Ellis Island as aliens?

Mr. Brown: My hon. Friend is simply repeating the Question which I have already answered.

Sir H. Williams: Will these instructions invalidate the marriages?

Mr. Brown: No, Sir.

LOCAL, AUTHORITY CLERKS (COMPENSATION FOR LOSS OF OFFICE)

Mr. Gledhill: asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the, part-time clerk to the Elland Urban District Council has received compensation for loss


of office upon relinquishing his position as part-time clerk to be replaced by a full-time clerk when Elland Urban District Council amalgamated with the urban district of Greetland and Stainland; that the part-time clerk to the Sowerby Bridge Urban District Council has been refused compensation for loss of office due to similar reasons upon amalgamation with the urban district of Midgley and Luddenden Foot; and whether he will take steps to have the provisions of the County of York West Riding Review Orders, 1937 and 1939, applied equally to each case?

Mr. E. Brown: I have no jurisdiction in regard to compensation payable under the Orders mentioned except on an appeal to me in accordance with the provisions of the Fourth Schedule to the Local Government Act, 1933. The first case referred to has not come before me. The second case was the subject of an appeal, but, as the officer concerned was not transferred by either of the Orders, the provisions in the Orders relating to relinquishment of office within five years were not applicable, and accordingly the appeal failed.

HOUSING (RURAL AREAS)

Mr. Collindridge: asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware of the grave shortage of houses in rural areas; that this position has been accentuated during the war by the extended area of production; and what action is being taken now to deal with this shortage, apart from the setting up of a Committee?

Mr. E. Brown: Yes, Sir; but any general schemes for the building of new houses must at present be suspended owing to the need for diverting all available labour and materials to works of vital strategic importance. The Government are, however, continuing to give facilities to local authorities for the erection of individual new houses which are essential in the interests of war-time food production, and for the reconditioning of existing houses occupied by agricultural workers.

Mr. Collindridge: Is the Minister aware of the increased demand for houses in these areas? If nothing is to be done, apart from the Committee, when may we expect the Committee to report?

Mr. Brown: My hon. Friend is under a misapprehension. What we are working on at the moment are plans for the future. I am pointing out that there is no lack of understanding of the urgency of the problem. The sole question is when we can get labour and material which are not required for these great building enterprises of strategic importance.

Mr. A. Edwards: Is the Minister aware that the Minister of Works and Planning recently stated that available labour will be available very shortly?

Mr. Collindridge: On a point of Order, The Minister does not deal with the latter part of the Question, which expressly asks what action is being taken now.

Mr. Brown: I suggest that that is incorrect. If my hon. Friend will read the answer he will see the two particular cases in which I simply stated what has actually been done.

ARMED FORCES AND CIVILIANS (PENSIONS AND GRANTS)

Dr. Haden Guest: asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is now in a position to appoint pensions appeal tribunals, in view of the fact that medical men of suitable training and experience are now available?

The Minister of Pensions (Sir Walter Womersley): A few doctors well qualified for pension work have recently become available and have been engaged by my Department to meet its increasing requirements and to replace younger men released for service with the Forces, but the evidence shows that the general position is becoming more rather than less difficult. Therefore, I can only repeat my undertaking to set up Pensions Appeal Tribunals as soon as practicable.

Dr. Guest: Does not the right hon. Gentleman know that considerable numbers of medical men who have been serving in the Armed Forces become available at regular intervals when seniority or the fact that they had held certain rank for a period of four years necessitates their retirement; that they are men of long service, administrative experience and high medical standing and that at the present time these gentlemen are very often not able to find suitable work and


could be placed as members of pensions appeal tribunals with very great advantage to themselves and to the country?

Sir W. Womersley: My Director of Medical Services is in constant touch with the Director of the Medical Services of the Armed Forces. Doctors who have been discharged from these Forces have been sent along to my Department, they have been interviewed, and, as I said in my answer to the Question, they have been employed. W can do with more of them. I can assure my hon. Friend that we keep in the closest touch with all the Service medical departments, and we take into our employment all who are available and are suitable.

Major Milner: Is the Minister aware that quite a number of the Members of this House are wholly dissatisfied with the position, and is he prepared to submit the evidence to which he referred to a committee of Members or to his Advisory Committee?

Sir W. Womersley: Certainly, I am just as dissatisfied as the hon. and gallant Member, but you cannot make bricks without straw, and until I get the right men I cannot do anything.

Major Milner: That is precisely what the right hon. Gentleman can do.

Dr. Guest: I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment in view of the very unsatisfactory reply of the Minister.

Mr. Evelyn Walkden: asked the Minister of Pensions by what amounts the weekly sums paid as War Service Grants to Service men's wives who are also in receipt of children's allowances are to be adjusted and reduced when the new rates of pay and allowances become operative; and can he state the reasons for this decision?

Sir R. Womersley: The purpose of a War Service Grant is either to provide a certain minimum standard of living for the families of serving men or to assist men who, by reason of their service, are unable to meet commitments in excess of that minimum. The new rates of pay of men serving in the Armed Forces will not affect the amount of any War Service Grant of which their wives are in receipt. The increased children's allowances will, however, form part of the family's income

and will either reduce the amount by which that income is below the minimum standard of 16s. per unit, after reasonable commitments have been met, or narrow the gap between the family's position prior to and during service. Thus in either case the increase alters the basis for the calculation of a War Service Grant and this alteration cannot be ignored. As existing grants are reviewed this factor must be taken into account along with other factors which affect the family income. As various factors come into the calculation of a War Service Grant it is: not possible to say by what amount any particular grant will be affected. Some will be reduced, some may remain unchanged, whilst there will be cases where the increase due to other factors may be greater than the reduction due to the increased allowances.

Mr. Walkden: While I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his reply, is he aware that when the statement was made by the Lord Privy Seal in this House some weeks ago that children's allowances were to be increased, Service men's wives believed that that would be the fact, and that they now feel that they have been cheated, and his departmental arithmetic will not explain away why these grants are not to be added to the wives' income?

Sir W. Womersley: There is no question of anybody being cheated at all. The statement was made quite clearly in this House at the time of the announcement of the increase, that in calculating the family income all the income must be taken into account, and I am going to deal with these cases when they come up for review. I can assure my hon. Friend that I shall take a very broad and generous view in this matter, but you cannot possibly separate the (increased allowance for a child from the family income.

Mr. John Wilmot: Does not the right hon. Gentleman appreciate how unsatisfactory it is that an increase in Service men's pay and allowances should not result in any increase in the family income?

Sir W. Womersley: That shows that my hon. Friend has not listened to my answer. Increasing the pay of the men has no effect whatever. The only thing we have to take into account is the family income, and these grants were instituted


to make up deficiencies. We shall continue to make up the deficiencies, but it would be unfair to others if we did not take into account the total family income.

Mr. Burke: Would it be possible for the Minister to put the matter right by raising the minimum allowance from 16s. to 17s., so that these cases, which are the poorest cases, would be better off and everybody would feel satisfied?

Sir W. Womersley: My hon. Friend has made a suggestion which is worth considering, and I will certainly go into that, because it does not affect the general situation and rule in this matter.

Major C. S. Taylor: How much of the £43,000,000 is going to be saved by this arithmetical gymnastics?

Sir W. Womersley: It is not a question of how much of the £43,000,000 is going to be saved but a question of making up deficiencies.

Mr. Walkden: I feel that I must raise the whole question on the Adjournment, in view of the unsatisfactory answer.

Mr. Buchanan: asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that a widow, Mrs. Alice Sheridan, 40, Dunmore Street, Glasgow, has been refused a War Service Grant on the ground that her son, James Sheridan, joined the Royal Air Force before the outbreak of war; that this woman's total income is £1 per week; and whether he will reconsider this case?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions (Mr. Paling): A War Service Grant could be issued only if it were shown that the serving man could not meet his pre-war obligations as a result of his war service, but this man has been serving on a regular engagement since 1938, and his war service has not lessened his ability to help his mother as compared with his position in 1939.

Mr. Buchanan: Can the hon. Gentleman say why a man who joined the Air Force before the war should be treated differently from a man who has joined since the war: and does he think it is a defensible position that this man's mother should be dependent upon drawing Poor Law relief, whereas if he had joined the, Air Force since the war she would have been eligible for grant?

Mr. Paling: No, not necessarily. The qualification is whether his ability to help his mother has been lessened by virtue of the fact of his war service, and in this case it has not, and that is the main condition that decides.

Mr. Buchanan: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Government at the time that this man joined the Air Force were appealing for recruits and that he left his apprenticeship and joined, but that if he had continued his apprenticeship and joined later, the mother would have got a grant and have been freed from the taint of Poor Law relief? Is it not an indefensible twist that the Minister has made? Can he defend the position of placing a mother and sole dependant of a man who has joined before his time in a worse position than if he had joined since?

Mr. Paling: I can assure the hon. Member that I. am not twisting. I have dealt with this case fully and sympathetically. I can only deal with it according to the powers we possess, and according to these powers it is impossible to make a grant.

Sir H. Williams: Is it because conscripts are treated better than volunteers throughout the Services?

Mr. Buchanan: Because of the unsatisfactory reply I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment, not only concerning this case but generally the question of men who joined the Air Force voluntarily before the war being treated worse than if they had joined since the war.

INDIA AND BURMA

Royal Engineer Lieutenants (Pay and Allowances)

Major-General Sir Alfred Knox: asked the Secretary of State for India the pay per month of a lieutenant of the Royal Engineers while serving in India; the allowance he receives for his wife and two children in England; and the Indian Income Tax, if any, that is deducted from these sums?

The Secretary of State for India (Mr. Amery): I shall take an emergency commissioned officer who has elected the new code of allowances. His pay and allowances amount to Rs. 545 a month, plus Rs, 170 a month family allowance—total Rs. 715 a month, on which Rs. 60 a month income tax will be payable.

Sir A. Knox: What is the Income Tax that is payable to the Indian Government?

Mr. Amery: Sixty rupees.

Sir A. Knox: Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider that this amount is rather large for a war-time soldier who has left home and gone out to India to serve?

Mr. Amery: I agree that the Indian rate of Income Tax does seem disproportionately to reduce the advantage to officers serving in India in certain cases, but I will look into the matter.

Seamen and Soldiers

Mr. Thorne: asked (1) the Secretary of State for India how many seamen have joined the British Mercantile Marine; and what has been the increase of the Indian Army since 1939;
(2) the Secretary of State for Burma how many Burmese have joined the British Mercantile Marine; and how many Burmese have joined the Indian Army since 1939?

Mr. Amery: The number of Indian and Burmese seamen now serving on British foreign-going merchant ships is estimated to be approximately 30,000. Burmese seamen were not separately enumerated in the latest census of Indian and Burmese seamen which was made in 1938. Their number is, however, believed to be small. As regards the second part of each. Question it would not be in the public interest to give detailed figures. The strength of the Indian Army has, however, increased nearly sevenfold since 1939 Burmans are not enlisted in the Indian Army, but in the Burma Army, in which their numbers increased about threefold between the outbreak of war and the beginning of this year.

Detainees

Mr. Sorensen: asked the Secretary of State for India approximately, the number of Indians now detained for political reasons; and how many of these are Hindu, Moslem, Christian, Sikh and Parsee?

Mr. Amery: I understand that the returns from Provincial Governments are still incomplete and, therefore, that the total figures are not yet available; but the returns in any case would not enable the persons concerned to be classified according to their religion.

Mr. Sorensen: When are we likely to have the figures regarding the number of detainees? Do I take it that a certain number of non-Hindus are included?

Mr. Amery: When the figures come in I shall be glad to communicate with the hon. Member.

Viceroy's Executive Council

Mr. Mander: asked the Secretary of State for India whether it is proposed to complete the Indianisation of the Viceroy's Executive by the appointment of Indians to the three portfolios still held by Englishmen?

Mr. Amery: No such change is at present in contemplation.

Mr. Mander: Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that taking action on these lines would meet with a large measure of approval among Indians?

Sind (Premier's Dismissal)

Mr. Sorensen: asked the Secretary of State for India the circumstances that have led to the displacement of the Moslem Premier of Sind, Khan Bahadur Allah Baksh; whether he was consulted on this matter; and when a decision to dismiss this Premier was reached?

Mr. Amery: The circumstances are explained in a communiqué issued by the Governor of Sind on 10th October, which stated that he had discussed with Mr. Allah Baksh his renunciation of honours and the reasons for that renunciation given in his published letter, and that in the light of that discussion he had no option but to inform Mr. Allah Baksh that he no longer possesses his confidence and that he could not in consequence continue to hold office. I had, of course, been consulted on the situation created by the Premier's publication late in September of his letter to the Viceroy and had agreed as to the impropriety in the light of it of his continuing in office; but the final decision to dismiss him was taken by the Governor only after a personal discussion which, owing to the Premier's absence from Sind, could not take place until 10th October.

Mr. Sorensen: Are we to take it that the offence of this Moslem Premier was the return by him of the titles which he had enjoyed until then?

Mr. Amery: No, Sir, that was an indication of his general attitude, which was one of direct disapproval of the measures taken by the Indian Government to restore order in a grave crisis arid of the complete identification of himself in public statements with the attitude of Congress.

Mr. Sorensen: Do I understand that he is a member of the Moslem League?

Mr. Amery: No, Sir.

Mr. Molson: Does not my right hon. Friend realise the satisfaction with which the dismissal of this Minister was heard in this country? Had he not shown himself thoroughly disloyal?

Oral Answers to Questions — CIVIL DEFENCE

Austrians (Registration)

Mr. Mander: asked the Home Secretary whether he will consider the advisability of altering the present system of the entry of nationality in certificates of registration, so that those Austrians who left Austria after September, 1938, may be placed in the same position as those who left before, thus giving them Austrian and not German nationality?

Mr. H. Marrison: The change in present practice suggested by my hon. Friend would not bring about any change in an alien's status or treatment in this country. Whether an individual is registered as an Austrian or as a German, he is in present circumstances an alien of enemy nationality.

Personnel, Gloucestershire (Equipment)

Mr. Price: asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that some air raid precautions casualty services in rural districts in Gloucestershire are still with-out steel helmets, respirators or uniforms, and that local officials have hitherto not been instructed to sanction their issue; and what the policy of his Department is in this matter?

Mr. H. Morrison: I am informed that the numbers of steel helmets and respirators held by the Gloucestershire County Council are sufficient for all the members of Civil Defence general services entitled to them. The provision of uniforms is at the discretion of the county council within

set limits, and I understand that all uniforms ordered from my Department have been supplied. If my hon. Friend will send me particulars of the shortages which he has in mind, I will make inquiries, but if he is referring to personnel attending first aid points, the only equipment at present authorised is steel helmets for a limited number.

Women Fire-Watchers

Mr. Simmonds: asked the Home Secretary what modifications he has decided to make in regard to the obligations which he has placed upon women for fire-watching on business premises?

Mr. H. Morrison: I am considering whether any modifications in regard to this and other matters in the Fire Prevention Orders are called for, but I am not at present in a position to make any statement on the subject.

Mr. Simmonds: While considering this matter, will my right hon. Friend bear in mind particularly the rather more objectionable form of incendiary bomb which is now being used and which requires the whole view of the Department towards fire watching to be reviewed?

Mr. Morrison: Yes, Sir, but we have dealt with that, and suitable advice has been issued. We have still to fight fires and prevent them as much as we can.

Mr. Mathers: When does my right hon. Friend expect to announce his decision?

Mr. Morrison: I do not know.

Local Authorities (Surplus Personnel)

Mr. R. C. Morrison: asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that the assurance given that, in carrying out the plan for the release of whole-time Civil Defence workers to productive industry, care would be taken to defer discharge until the Ministry of Labour could find employment for the persons concerned is operating to prevent local authorities from reducing their whole-time establishment in the ordinary course of establishment revision, where this could be done without loss of efficiency by the substitution of part-time volunteers or persons directed into part-time service by the Ministry of Labour; and whether he will take prompt steps to remedy this?

Mr. H. Morrison: No, Sir. My assurance was not intended to refer to redundant personnel, and I think the House will agree that where local authorities can maintain or increase the efficiency of their Civil Defence organisation by an increased use of part-timers, it would not be in the public interest to retain any full-time workers so rendered redundant. To remove any doubts, I am issuing a circular to this effect to the scheme-making authorities, with an intimation that they may give surplus personnel up to a month's notice to facilitate absorption into industry of those whose qualifications for other employment are not in immediate demand.

Oral Answers to Questions — CINEMAS

Sunday Opening

Sir Percy Hurd: asked the Home Secretary whether he will issue a circular to local councils intimating that where they permit the opening of cinemas on Sundays it should be subject to the condition that the programmes of the day are approved by the licensing authorities?

Mr. H. Morrison: No, Sir. I think this is a matter which must be left to the discretion of the licensing authorities, who, I believe, generally require that all films to be exhibited must have received the certificate of the British Board of Film Censors.

Sir P. Hurd: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that where local authorities do exercise supervision of Sunday programmes the general effect has been to tone them up and to eliminate those of a debasing tendency?

Mr. Morrison:: I do not know about that, but I think it would be a highly inconvenient arrangement if licensees exhibited their films to local authorities. It would, no doubt, be a pleasant thing for members of the local authorities, but I cannot believe that it would be in the public interest.

Mr. Sorensen: If films are allowed to be shown during the week, is there any reason why they should not be shown on Sunday?

Prices

Mr. Cluse: asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that it is a common practice in the cinema industry to

reduce the number of the lower-priced seats and increase the number of higher-priced seats, thereby inflicting hardship on the public, especially at peak times in the performances; and whether he will take powers, if necessary, by legislation to regulate these prices?

Mr. Morrison: I understand that the practice in some cinemas of varying prices giving price concession during slack periods is of long standing. In London the licensing authority has dealt with the matter and presumably other licensing authorities can do the same. The answer to the last part of the Question is in the negative.

Mr. Cluse: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is no question of a price concession, and that the price of the seat is the same all through the sitting? Is he aware that the complaint which I have received from a good many constituents is that seats which used to be obtainable at a certain price have now had their price increased by double the amount of the increase in the tax imposed by the Chancellor? Is there any Department which can deal with this continuous profiteering ramp by cinema proprietors?

Mr. Morrison: I have indicated that the matter has already been dealt with in London by the London County Council, and presumably other licensing authorities could do the same thing. I think my hon. Friend had better take the matter up with the local licensing authorities.

Mr. Evelyn Walkden: Could not my right hon. Friend insist that the principle applied in London of exhibiting outside cinemas a chart showing the seats and prices should obtain throughout the whole of the licensing authorities of the country? Would not that be more satisfactory?

Mr. Morrison: That would involve legislation; and I do not think we can stop for legislation of that sort. Moreover, it is not a bad thing if some degree of local self-government remains.

SENTENCE ON HOME GUARD, MELKSHAM

Mr. W. Brown: asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been drawn to the sentence of one month's imprisonment passed on Reginald Brown,


of Melksham, for not attending Home Guard parades; and whether he will take immediate steps to remit this sentence?

Mr. H. Morrison: I would refer to the reply given on Tuesday to the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovem).

ARRESTED MEN, LIVERPOOL (POLICE TREATMENT)

Mr. A. Edwards: asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been drawn to the statement of Mr. Hemmerde at the Liverpool Quarter Sessions recently that he was confident that beating up of arrested men in bridewells does go on; and whether he will cause immediate inquiries to be made?

Dr. Russell Thomas: asked the Home Secretary whether he will call for a report in regard to the recent allegation of the Recorder of Liverpool asserting that arrested men are beaten by the police in order to extract admissions?

Mr. H. Morrison: I need not assure the House that I take the most serious view of any suggestion that there has been maltreatment by the police of any person in custody. Accordingly, as soon as I saw the newspaper account I called for a report from the Chief Constable and I have ascertained that a defendant who was before the Court on 8th October handed a written statement to the learned Recorder alleging that he had been ill-treated while he was in police custody after his arrest on the night of 29th July, more than two months earlier. The defendant in question had not previously made a complaint to any person in authority, though he has had opportunities to do so when he was before the Magistrate on three occasions before his committal to Quarter Sessions; and his allegations were denied on oath by the police officers whom he mentioned as being concerned. According to the newspaper reports the learned Recorder referred to other statements of a similar character which had reached him and in order that every effort may be made to investigate the matter I am communicating with the learned Recorder and asking him to help me by giving me any information in his possession on which his remarks were based.

MALTA

Mr. Higgs: asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that an official proclamation to the effect that henceforth Malta should be known and addressed as Malta G.C. would meet with general approval; and will he make the necessary announcement?

The Prime Minister (Mr. Churchill): No, Sir. My information does not disclose any such general wish.

WAR CABINET (DEPARTMENTAL RESPONSIBILITIES)

Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: asked the Prime Minister whether he has yet come to a final decision as to the advisability of having a War Cabinet composed of Ministers without other Departmental responsibilities?

The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. I am opposed to such an arrangement for reasons which I have fully explained to the House. But another Government might take a different view.

Sir T. Moore: Does not my right hon. Friend think that such a task is beyond the capacity even of supermen, let alone, let us say, quite ordinary men such as surround himself? Does he not think that by shouldering this intolerable burden of dual responsibilities it is impossible for his colleagues to discharge them both effectively?

CONDUCT OF THE WAR

Sir T. Moore: asked the Prime Minister what progress has been made in establishing a unified command or control of the Fighting Services in each theatre of war?

The Prime Minister: Progress in improving and refining our methods of conducting the war is our constant aim, and is I hope continual, but I have at present no further statement to make upon the subject.

CHANNEL ISLANDERS (DEPORTATION)

Mr. Ammon: asked the Prime Minister whether it is intended to take any action to prevent any further


deportation of Channel Islanders and other British subjects therein resident, to Germany and other countries in enemy occupation; and whether any effort has been made by the Allies to prevent the transfer of food from the islands and to intercept the transport of troops to and from the Channel Islands?

The Prime Minister: I assure my hon. Friend that we do what we can to beat the enemy.

Mr. Ammon: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that letters arrive here that the Germans come and go without any attempt being made to stop them?

Mr. Ammon: asked the Home Secretary whether he can state the number of Channel Islanders compulsorily evacuated to Germany and other countries since the German occupation?

Mr. H. Morrison: Every effort is being made to obtain as full information as possible about this matter, but I am not as yet in a position to add, anything to the answer which I gave last week.

Mr. Ammon: Did not my right hon. Friend intimate, in that reply, that there was no contact between him and the War Office, so that he did not know what was happening?

Mr. Morrison: I do not think my answer indicated that.

Major Petherick: In seeking for information, will my right hon. Friend try to find out whether Channel Islanders have been sent to forced labour in Germany, or into internment, or whether they are at large there?

Mr. Morrison: Inquiries are being made about all those matters.

ELGIN MARBLES

Mr. Ivor Thomas: asked the Prime Minister whether, in order to mark our gratitude for the continuing resistance of Greek guerilla forces, he will consider the transfer of the Elgin Marbles to the Greek Government for restoration to their original site after the war?

The Prime Minister: I must refer my hon. Friend to the reply which was given on 23rd January, 1941, in reply to a

Question by my hon. Friend the Member for East Islington (Mrs. Cazalet Keir).

Mr. Hannah: Would these Marbles exist at all if they had not been brought to London?

The Prime Minister: I think I will stick to my reply by reference.

SOCIAL INSURANCE (BEVERIDGE COMMITTEE'S REPORT)

Mr. Tinker: asked the Paymaster-General whether he is now in a position to say when the Beveridge Report on Social Insurance will be made available to the House?

The Paymaster-General (Sir William Jowitt): As I said yesterday in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander), Sir William Beveridge's report is expected in a few weeks' time and will be published as soon as it is received.

Mr. Tinker: Does my right hon. and learned Friend understand that those of us who are especially interested in old age pensions are looking forward to this Report and hope it will be available soon?

Oral Answers to Questions — AGRICULTURE

Poultry Keeping (Ex-Service Men)

Mr. Sorensen: asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will reconsider the proposal to place disabled ex-Service men poultry keepers in the same category as the blind respecting supplementary rations for their flocks?

The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. R. S. Hudson): I regret that the hon. Member's suggestion is not practicable.

Mr. Sorensen: Has the right hon. Gentleman received any representations concerning this matter from interested organisations?

Mr. Hudson: I have had representations from a number of quarters about the hardships involved, but the rations are not available to enable me to alleviate those hardships.

Italian Prisoners of War

Mr. Cluse: asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is satisfied with the general conduct and volume of work


performed by the Italian prisoners now engaged in agricultural production?

Mr. Hudson: On the whole, yes, Sir.

Post-War Policy

Brigadier-General Clifton Brown: asked the Minister of Agriculture whether his attention has been drawn to the recommendation in paragraph 541, page 90, of the Scott Report, that the Government should lay down a definite agricultural policy for five years now in order that utilisation of the land in rural areas can be proceeded with; and whether he will take immediate steps to that end to give confidence to owners and farmers to carry on with full production from their soil?

Mr. Hudson: Post-war agricultural policy is under consideration together with the other matters referred to in the Scott Report. I am not in a position at present to make any further statement.

Brigadier-General Brown: Does my right hon. Friend realise the importance of letting owners and farmers know what part they are to play in any new planning of rural England after the war?

Mr. Hudson: As I said recently, the really important thing is for people to get on with production and not to worry about other matters.

Women's Land Army (Canteens)

Mr. Mathers: asked the Minister of Agriculture whether the various interests concerned have now made arrangements for the admission of members of the Women's Land Army to all canteens open to women in the other Services or whether restrictions still apply; and what steps he is taking to remove them?

Mr. Hudson: Members of the Women's Land Army in uniform are now admitted to all Service canteens which appear on the list submitted by the Women's Land Army of canteens to which admission is desired. The list is subject to revision by the Women's Land Army from time to time.

Oral Answers to Questions — EDUCATION

Preparatory and Private Schools (Attendance)

Sir R. Young: asked the President of the Board of Education how often preparatory

and private schools, religious or otherwise, for young people are visited in the course of a school session for the purpose of checking attendances; whether any steps are taken to inquire into absences from school; and what action follows long absences and irregular attendance not due to health reasons?

The President of the Board of Education (Mr. Butler): The inspection of preparatory and private schools is carried out at the request of the school by His Majesty's Inspectors under Sections 134 or 147 of the Education Act, 1921, for the purpose of determining the efficiency of the school. No periodical visits are paid to such schools for the purpose of checking attendances nor are inquiries made into the absence of pupils from school. If the local education authority of the area has reason to believe that individual pupils are not receiving efficient elementary instruction, it is open to them to take proceedings under Section 43 of the Education Act, 1921.

Sir R. Young: Who gives the local authorities information about non-attendance at these schools?

Mr. Butler: They have to find that out for themselves.

Sir P. Harris: Will my right hon. Friend consider dealing with this matter when he has an opportunity of doing so?

Mr. Butler: I agree that in respect of these schools there is a certain gap to be made up, and the right hon. Baronet may feel confident that in looking into the future I shall not forget this question.

Sir H. Williams: Does not my right hon. Friend realise that when people pay out of their own pockets for the education of their children, they take good care to get value for their money?

School Uniforms

Mr. Parker: asked the President of the Board of Education whether he will take powers to compel all boys' schools with a school uniform to replace existing clothing as it wears out by a simple wartime uniform of shorts, lumber jackets and other articles for saving material?

Mr. Butler: I have already asked all secondary schools to discontinue school uniforms and to allow parents reasonable discretion in the choice of clothes for their


children, I understand that in the great majority of cases this has been done. Thus, I prefer not to replace one uniform with another, but I am in consultation with my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade about the most economical type of clothing for use in schools?

Registration

Mr. Kenneth Lindsay: asked the President of the Board of Education whether he will now issue as a White Paper the results of the recent national registration of young people whose ages lay between 16 and 18?

Mr. Butler: In order to gain a better picture of the situation, I have decided to defer consideration of this matter until I have before me the results of the further experience gained of the follow-up of the registration that took place last month, and the fuller reports asked for in Circular 1600, a copy of which I am sending the hon. Member?

Mr. Lindsay: As all the local education authorities have now reported, and as this information is of very great importance for pre-service and other purposes, will my right hon. Friend not let the country have the benefit of this knowledge?

Mr. Butler: I appreciate the importance of giving the House and the country a proper description of what happened. Unfortunately, the situation is not such that I have all the information necessary to give that picture. Therefore, we have approved in Circular 1600, which I hope my hon. Friend will study, the suggestion for making returns. When we have satisfactory returns, I shall be able to give a better picture.

Mr. Sorensen: When is the right hon. Gentleman likely to be able to give to the House a full report on this particular business?

Mr. Butler: As soon as we have the information that will come in as a result of the circulation of this document.

Mr. Edmund Harvey: Will my right hon. Friend consider issuing a White Paper when the returns are complete?

Mr. Butler: That is what I said I would do in my original answer.

Mr. Lindsay: I beg to give notice that I must reserve the right to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

Boarding Expenses

Mr. Lindsay: asked the President of the Board of Education whether it is permissible for his Department to contribute to boarding allowances in respect of scholars at independent or grant-aided schools?

Mr. Butler: No provision is made for any direct payment by the Board to cover boarding fees of pupils at secondary schools. The Board have power to pay grant on expenditure by local education authorities on the boarding expenses, but such grant is only paid where the pupil is outside the reach of a day secondary school.

Mr. Lindsay: Will my right hon. Friend, irrespective of what Committees are to report titer the war, encourage these experiments where boys from secondary schools are evacuated?

Mr. Butler: I am all in favour of new experiments of this kind.

University Students

Mr. Cecil Wilson: asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the number of new students at the universities of the United Kingdom for the, last year for which figures are available; what proportion this bears to the population; and how these figures compare with those for Russia recently published by the Press department of the Soviet Embassy in London?

The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir Kingsley Wood): The estimated number of new full-time students entering universities and university colleges in Great Britain for the first time this autumn is 13,100, representing a proportion of 1 in 3,531 of the estimated population in June, 1939. These figures do not include students attending senior courses in technical colleges in receipt of grant from the Board of Education. I am not in a position to say how far these figures are comparable with those for the Soviet Union to which my hon. Friend refers.

Oral Answers to Questions — NATIONAL FINANCE

Workers' Earnings (Remission to Eire)

Professor Savory: asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention


has been called to the official statement made in the Chamber of Deputies in Dublin by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance that £300,000 a month in money orders and postal orders are being received in Eire out of wages earned in Great Britain; and whether, as this money would be better employed if invested in war savings in the United Kingdom, he will take steps to prevent this export?

Sir K. Wood: No, Sir. The only result of such an action would be to cut off the supply of labour coming from Eire, which would not be to our advantage.

Professor Savory: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance for Eire said in the Chamber of Deputies that this British money was irredeemable paper and might be thrown into the waste-paper basket? Why not block a currency which our Southern Irish friends consider to be worthless?

Mr. Shinwen: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that if the money is left in this country and invested, we shall require to pay interest on it?

Annuities (Income Tax)

Sir Leonard Lylte: asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in connection with his plans for the Budget of 1943, he will carefully examine existing legislation in America and the Dominions whereby some concession is given in income tax to those who depend upon small annuities to maintain them in their old age?

Sir K. Wood: As I stated in reply to a Question put by the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Sir J. Wardlaw-Milne) on 24th March, I cannot see my way at the present time to introduce legislation with regard to the taxation of annuities. I may remind my hon. Friend that the investment income of persons of over 65 years of age with total income not exceeding £500 enjoys the same relief as is allowed in respect of earned income.

Sir L. Lyle: Is it not very unfair on these small annuitants that on the portion of their annuity which represents capital they have to pay full Income Tax, and is it not a fact that in America and Australia that is taken into consideration?

Sir K. Wood: My hon. Friend knows my difficulties in regard to the remission of taxation.

Production Ministries (Costing Staffs)

Mr. A. Edwards: asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will take steps to dispense with the mainly superfluous costing establishments in the Production Ministries by substituting a requirement that every company produces a certificate from its auditors confirming its statement of costs?

Sir K. Wood: I cannot accept my hon. Friend's suggestion that the costing staffs in the Production Ministries, who are working under heavy pressure, are mainly superfluous, and I should not therefore be prepared to adopt this suggestion. Every effort is being made by those Departments, in the negotiation of contract prices, to limit, so far as is consistent with the public interest, the extent of their investigations, and to make full use of all information which the firms in question, or their auditors, are in a position to provide.

Mr. Edwards: Will not the right hon. Gentleman give further consideration to this proposal? Is he not aware that the entire Income Tax and increased Excess Profits Tax are collected by this simple process? There is no difference.

Sir K. Wood: I am willing to use the statements of auditors for certain purposes, but I could not confine myself to the hon. Member's proposition.

Mr. Higgs: Is my right hon. Friend aware that as many as three costings take place on many products, and will he not consider a simplification of this procedure?

Sir K. Wood: I am always willing to do that, but I am not prepared to confine myself to the hon. Member's suggestion.

Oral Answers to Questions — COAL PROSPECTING, STAVELEY

Mr. Wilson: asked the Minister of Fuel and Power on whose advice and/or authority a search was made for coal at Staveley, adjoining the Worksop main road; what cost was incurred; at whose expense; what weight of coal was secured; why the whole of the excavation is now filled in and hedges made good; what area of crops was damaged; and whether the owners thereof are to be compensated?

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power (Mr. T. Smith): Prospecting at this site was undertaken after consultation with the Geological Survey. Although the existence of old workings on the site was known, test borings suggested that there was a considerable area of coal which it was decided to work by opencast methods. After a portion of the overburden had been stripped and the extent of the old workings was revealed, the project was abandoned and the land restored without any coal being won. About two acres of crops was damaged. The cost to my Ministry of prospecting and making good the site is estimated to be about £5,650, exclusive of compensation payable to the owners, which will be negotiated by the District Valuer, Inland Revenue.

Mr. Wilson: Why was this large expenditure incurred when it is well known by people in the district that no coal was obtainable?

Mr. Smith: In exploring for coal worked by this method there is a certain amount of risk, but every care is taken. This was only abandoned when it was found that it was not worth proceeding with.

FIELD MARSHAL SMUTS (ADDRESS TO BOTH HOUSES)

The Prime Minister: As the House is aware, Field Marshal Smuts, Prime Minister of the Union of South Africa and a member of the United Kingdom War Cabinet in the last war, has arrived in London. We were sure that Parliament would like to have an opportunity of meeting this illustrious statesman and soldier while in this country. He has kindly consented to address Members of both Houses on an early occasion. The date, hour and place will be imparted to the House in Secret Session in a few minutes by the Lord Privy Seal. I hope that all Members will make arrangements to be present.

Sir P. Harris: Will the Press be admitted, and is it proposed to broadcast the speech?

The Prime Minister: Yes, that was the idea, that the Field Marshal should have an opportunity of speaking not only to us but to the world.

Mr. Thorne: Why not have it in the open Chamber?

The Prime Minister: We have to provide for the other House as well, and various points would arise. I think the statement about to be made when we go into Secret Session will answer the hon. Member's question.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Mr. Arthur Greenwood: May I ask about the Business for the next series of Sitting Days?

The Lord Privy Seal (Sir Stafford Cripps): The Business will be as follows:
First Sitting Day—Committee stage of a Supplementary Vote of Credit for War Expenditure and Committee stage of a Supplementary Estimate for Supplementary Pensions.
Second Sitting Day—Report stage of the Supplementary Vote of Credit and of the Supplementary Estimate. A Debate on Wages Policy will take place on the Report stage of the Vote of Credit.
Third Sitting Day—We shall ask the House to pass a special Consolidated Fund Bill for the Vote of Credit through all its stages. Afterwards there will be an opportunity for matters to be raised on the Motion for the Adjournment of the House.
I have a further statement to make in regard to Business arrangements, which, for security reasons, it is considered advisable to make in Secret Session. Accordingly, Mr. Speaker, after we have dealt with any Questions on the Business statement which I have just made, I propose to spy Strangers.

Mr. Greenwood: If the discussion on the Vote of Credit on the first Sitting Day is short, as one assumes it would be, if it were in Order my hon. Friends desire to raise the question of war pensions in relation to appeal tribunals and pensions for the loss of sons.

Sir S. Cripps: If Mr. Speaker feels that that is in Order, the Government will offer no opposition.

Mr. Stokes: Is the Leader of the House Yet able to give any indication when the long-promised Debate on wartime finance can take place?

Sir John Wardlaw-Milne: In connection with war finance generally, has it been agreed that it should be this particular Debate on the first Sitting Day? Has that been fixed after consultation through the usual channels?

Sir S. Cripps: It has been suggested through the usual channels that it will be convenient to have that Debate on that occasion, and the Government see no objection to it. With regard to the question of my hon. Friend opposite, if the Debate he desires is one as regards borrowing and not spending policy, that would not, of course, be in Order on the day set aside for the Vote of Credit and the Consolidated Fund Bill. No provision has so far been made for such a Debate.

Mr. Stokes: Will my right hon. and learned Friend bear in mind what amounted to a promise from him before the House adjourned for the Summer Recess, that we should have an opportunity of discussing the methods of financing the war on an early date?

Sir S. Cripps: It is a matter that can be discussed on the Adjournment.

Mr. Stokes: But the promise was for a full day's Debate.

Sir S. Cripps: I do not think so. If my hon. Friend reads my answer, I think he will find that he has misinterpreted it.

Mr. Harvey: Has any day been settled for a discussion of the Report of the Select Committee on the Disposal of Documents, which calls for a Resolution?

Sir S. Cripps: I understand that that is awaiting the Motion; we cannot have the Debate until we have the Motion.

Mr. Buchanan: Yesterday the Minister of Production made a statement regarding the grouping of industry. I see in this morning's Press a report that at a meeting—where and of what kind is not defined—a further statement was made by the Minister. In view of its far-reaching consequences and its importance in many respects, cannot that statement be made available to Members? I do not know whether it is fully reported in the Press or not, but the matter is very important, and we should have the full statement.

Sir S. Cripps: I will consult my right hon. Friend, but I think that it is fairly fully stated in "The Times" this morning.

Mr. Shinwell: Would it not have been desirable for the Minister of Production to have amplified his statement to the House instead of making an important announcement elsewhere? If important announcements are to be made, they ought to be made in the House so that hon. Members can have an opportunity of putting questions.

Sir S. Cripps: I think that the substance of the statement was the same. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I think it was the same. As the House does not like very long statements, efforts are made to cut them as short as possible when made by Ministers. From the report that I read this morning, it appears that it was an amplification of the statement in the House.

Sir H. Williams: In the event of a Debate taking place on borrowing policy, will the Leader of the House arrange with the Chancellor of the Exchequer to publish a White Paper showing the borrowing methods in other belligerent countries, particularly having regard to the fact that the rate of interest in Russia is 4 per cent. free of tax, whereas in this country it is 3 per cent. subject to tax?

Sir S. Cripps: Knowing my hon. Friend's extreme interest in Russia, I will bring the point to the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Mr. Evelyn Walkden: In view of the apparent arrangement that we shall have a Debate on appeal tribunals for war pensions, shall we also have the attendance of the Minister of Health to give us factual evidence as to the number of doctors available and a full statement, so that we may discuss in an intelligent manner facts and figures from his point of view?

Sir S. Cripps: If the subject is in Order for Debate on the first Sitting Day, I will certainly ask the Minister of Health whether he will be so good as to be in attendance.

Mr. Kirkwood: Is it possible for a White Paper to be issued giving us full information of what is behind the decision that the Minister of Production has put forward


as it concerns engineers? It is stated today in the "Express" that engineers will be taken from one part of Britain and sent to another part and that they will have no redress, any more than a soldier has if he is sent from here to Cairo. That is a serious statement, and we must get it straightened out and in print, so that people can understand it, because the engineers are not going to stand for that.

Sir S. Cripps: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will allow me to consult my right hon. Friend the Minister of Production as to whether it is possible to issue any such White Paper.

Mr. Buchanan: To-day at Question time an issue was raised by the hon. Member for Doncaster (Mr. E. Walkden) affecting to some extent the Leader of the House personally, namely, increases of pay to dependants. The Minister of Pensions gave an answer in which he showed that the children's allowances were not now being paid to people who were in receipt of hardship grants or War Service Grants. It is in the minds of a large number of people that this extra shilling for the children is now being kept from them by another means. In view of the fact that the Leader of the House was himself largely responsible for the statement on the increases of pay and that they are not being made, will he consult the Minister of Pensions in order that he himself should not be placed in a rather awkward position on the matter?

Sir S. Cripps: I am much obliged to my hon. Friend for his care of me. I have been in consultation with my right hon. Friend on this matter, and it is under consideration.

SECRET SESSION

Notice taken, that Strangers were present.

Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to Standing Order No. 89, put the Question,"That Strangers be ordered to withdraw."

Question agreed to.

Strangers withdrew accordingly..

The House subsequently resumed in Public Session.

Orders of the Day — WELSH COURTS [MONEY]

Resolution reported,
That for the purposes of any Act of the present Session making provision, among other things, for enabling rules to be made for the payment of interpreters in courts of justice in Wales, it is expedient to provide for the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of such sums as may be required for the remuneration of such interpreters in accordance with scales prescribed by rules made under the said Act.

Resolution agreed to.

Orders of the Day — WELSH COURTS BILL

Considered in Committee, reported without Amendment, read the Third time, and passed.

EMERGENCY POWERS (DEFENCE) ACT, 1939

FISH SALES (CHARGES) (No. 2) ORDER

The Parliameotary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Mr. Mabane): I beg to move,
That the Fish Sales (Charges) (No. 2) Order, 1942, dated 30th September, 1942, made by the Treasury under Section 2 of the Emergency Powers (Defence) Act, 1939, a copy of which was presented to this House on 6th October, be approved.
The House may wish me to indicate the reasons why this Order has been presented for approval. When the price control scheme was introduced in June, 1941, the equalisation of carriage charges was an integral part of that scheme. It was clearly desirable and necessary that fish should be distributed as nearly as possible equally over the country. In the ordinary way, if the producers or merchants of fish had themselves had to bear the charges for carriage, they would naturally have been inclined to sell their fish in those markets to which the carriage charges would be lowest, and the restriction on the distribution of fish would have been considerable. Therefore, it was decided to introduce an Order which had the effect of equalising carriage charges by requiring a levy to be paid on all fish in order that the proceeds of that levy might be devoted to the payment of carriage charges. As a consequence of that, it was no longer an advantage for merchants to sell near the ports. It was equally to the advantage of a merchant to sell at a distance if his market was there. The proceeds of that levy, which was then at the rate of 6d. per stone on demersal fish, were expected, together with certain profits made by the Fish Division, to equal the carriage charges that had to be paid. It was estimated that the total amount produced by that levy would be about £1,400,000 in the full year. We had a matter of £2,300,000 to meet. We had certain profits on the Icelandic fish scheme and the Hellyer voluntary scheme which have now ceased and it is necessary to meet the difference between £1,400,000 and £2,300,000 in another way.
Therefore this Order proposes to vary the levy and to step it up from 6d. a stone in the case of demersal fish to 9d., and in the case of pelagic fish to introduce a levy at the rate of 6d., whereas there


was no levy before. It has been possible to make this proposal without at the same time increasing the cost of fish to the consumer because our examination of costs shows that there is sufficient leeway to allow this levy in the one case to be increased and in the other case to be imposed without increasing the price of fish to the ultimate consumer. The levy is of course borne in the last resort by the consumer, who naturally, in the past, bore this carriage charge in the price which he paid for the fish he consumed. This Order really is a matter of machinery, a matter of adjusting the bookkeeping in the Fish Division. I hope that the House will approve it.

Mr. Boothby: I do not propose to detain the House more than a very few moments, because the explanation of this Order seems satisfactory except on one point. The zoning scheme, with which I think everybody agrees in principle, is now about to come into operation. I should have thought the main object of that scheme was to reduce the distances which fish have to be hauled in order to reach the public. It does therefore seem an odd moment for the Ministry of Food to come to the House and ask for an increase in carriage charges in the case of all white fish—I prefer to stick to the old name—and in the case of herring—which I certainly prefer to the word "pelagic"—it seems odd for the Ministry, when they are making reduction in haulage charges, to come and increase the price to the public, because it is on the consumer that the charge will fall.

Mr. Mabane: I am sure that my hon. Friend will not have forgotten that the zoning scheme does not apply to herring, sprats, mackerel or other pelagic fish.

Mr. Boothby: Yes, I agree; but it seems to me that if the zoning scheme is a success—and, after all, the Ministry are only balancing their books—they might recapture a sufficient amount on the white fish to enable them to carry on without putting a new charge on herring. I do not want these few remarks of mine to lead anybody to the conclusion that I am against the zoning scheme as such. I think there are certain difficulties which it may take time to work out; but they will be rectified I hope, and it is disappointing that the Minister should now come and

ask the House to increase the charges for carriage on all fish.
There is only one other point I wish to raise. I think the handling of Icelandic herring ought not to be confided entirely to the English white fish trade interests, who never before the war touched a barrel of herring. The British Herring Trade Association ought to be allowed not only to purchase there herring, but also to arrange for their distribution. This is an important point, and there is considerable feeling in the North-East of Scotland that the English white fish people should not be allowed to take over this trade just because they are an important part of the Fish Division of the Ministry. There is a strong feeling that this business ought to be given to the people who have been conducting the business for 50 years and more, and who, owing to the complete closing of European markets, are now suffering very considerably.

Mr. Mabane: I am much obliged to my hon. Friend for raising the matter of the economies that are likely to result from zoning. We do hope there will be considerable economies. They will be used in the first place to meet the deficit in the current year, and after that we hope they may be passed on to those who deserve the reward. On the matter of handling the Icelandic herring, I will undertake to look into the matter, and I hope I may be able to satisfy my hon. Friend.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolved,
That the Fish Sales (Charges) (No. 2) Order, 1942, dated 30th September, 1942, made by the Treasury under Section 2 of the Emergency Powers (Defence) Act, 1939, a copy of which was presented to this House on 6th October, be approved.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

STATE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT PENSIONERS (COST OF LIVING)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. A. Young.]

Mr. William Brown: I wish to raise a matter, which I think ought to receive attention, in regard to the position of pensioners in the Civil Service, the local government service, the teaching


profession, the police service and the prison service. AU these categories of people are covered by superannuation schemes. Some, as in the case of civil servants proper, are non-contributory schemes where the whole cost falls upon the State. Others, as in the case of the teaching profession, are contributory schemes, with part of the cost falling on the State, the other part being met by the contributions of the individual officers. Usually the pension is related to the length of service which the individual has put in, but under all the schemes there is a ceiling beyond which the pensioner cannot go. In the last war the same problem cropped up. There was a big increase in the cost of living. It was discovered that pensions which might have been all right in the circumstances of 1914, became hopelessly all wrong with the rising prices that took place in the last war, and the State did in fact take steps to adjust those pensions. A special Measure was passed through the House of Commons, which enabled an increase—I think the figure was up to 40 per cent.—to be made in the amount of these pensions.
In this war there has been a rise in the cost of living, the amount of which may be disputed. The Ministry of Labour index figure says that the cost of living has increased by somewhere about 27 per cent. In the actual experience of most of us that 27 per cent. would, I think, be regarded as much lower than the actual increase in the cost of living. I think, in the experience of most of us, the appropriate figure would probably be nearer 40 per cent. than the 27 per cent. of the Ministry of Labour index figure. In spite of that very substantial rise in the cost of living, no adjustment has been made in the pensions of any one of these various State services. That is remarkable, because in every other field of the population where we have dealt with people living on moneys from the State, we have in fact made substantial adjustments to the rates of pay or allowances. We have adjusted unemployment benefit, we have adjusted Assistance Board relief, we have adjusted the separation allowances of the Armed Forces. We have adjusted—very inadequately, it is true—widows' and old age pensions. [Interruption.] Not Army pensions? I take that point. It may be that the scope of my argument to-day

should be wider than it is. If my hon. Friend proposes to raise the matter of Army pensions, he may count upon my enthusiastic support. To-day I am raising the subject in relation to the civil services of the State.
Not only have we adjusted all the allowances I have mentioned, but we have also adjusted the rates of pay of serving officers in each of the services to which I have referred. In the Civil Service a war bonus up to a maximum figure of 13s. 6d. has been granted. In the teaching profession there is a similar cost of living bonus. Local government authorities have adjusted the pay of their staffs. And the Prison Commissioners have adjusted the rates of pay of serving warders. I submit that the need of the pensioner" is not less than that of the serving civil servant; in fact, it is very much greater. The maximum pension he may draw is one-half of his retiring salary. To pass from the active list to the retired list inevitably involves a very heavy and sharp contraction of the officer's standard of life, and when the pension is eaten into by a very heavy increase in the cost of living, which I submit is probably of the order of 40 per cent., the consequential effect on the officer is very grave indeed.
Another point I wish to make is that in all the services I have mentioned, particularly in the case of the Civil Service, it is not the whole of the service which is pensionable. It is only that part of the Civil Service which is described as "established," and a man may put in anything up to 15 or 20 years before he is passed into the establishment, and becomes eligible for pension. When he retires it is only that part of service which is established which is taken into account for pension purposes. The result is that many of these pensions are pensions of very small amounts—5s. a week, 10s. a week, 15s. a week, £1 a week and so on, and the impact of an increase in the cost of living of 40 per cent. on those very low pensions has produced tragic results among those old servants of the State.
I want to urge on the Treasury—one can never expect the Treasury to be generous; I suppose it would be inconsistent with its function if it were—that here is a case which does call for sympathetic understanding and sympathetic


treatment. The Civil Service and other unions have raised the matter with the Government, and have been given various reasons why nothing should be done. One reason advanced to me, in respect to the Civil Service, was that before adjustments in pensions could be made the Government needed to be satisfied that the rise in the cost of living was not a temporary flash in the pan, but would extend over a very long period. I think the House will agree that three years is not an inconsiderable period, and beyond that it is as certain as anything can be, for reasons I will give in a moment, that the rise in the cost of living will persist for many years after this war is over. There is one simple factor which makes that quite inevitable. The Chancellor of the Exchequer tells us from time to time that he wishes to avoid inflation. Of course, he does not wish to do anything, of the kind. As a matter of fact he needs inflation, and he will not be able to arrange his post-war Budgets without it. When he says he does not want inflation, he means that he does not want uncontrolled inflation, but wishes to keep it within certain limits.
When this war started we had a National Debt of about £8,000,000,000. By the time it ends it will probably be of the order of £20,000,000,000, and probably more. I submit it will be quite impossible to service that Debt with the pound at anything like its pre-war value, because it would absorb the whole of a Budget of ordinary pre-war dimensions. It is a condition of servicing the Debt that we inflate, and it is pretty common knowledge that the Government intend to allow inflation within certain defined areas. But these areas are so wide as automatically to ensure that for a decade, and probably two decades, after this war is over, the cost of living will be substantially higher than in pre-war days. It seems to me that the first criterion which the Government say they require to be satisfied before doing anything about pensions is abundantly satisfied over the last three years and is certain to be satisfied for as far ahead as any one of us can look. The average life of a pensioner from the Civil Service after he has retired is about 12 years. It may be taken as axiomatic that for the whole of the rest of the life of men and women now on pension, they will be confronted with a

cost of living very much higher than that which existed before 1939.
Another reason sometimes given to us is that if the Government are to increase pensions when the cost of living rises, are we prepared to accept the proposition that pensions should be decreased when the cost of living goes down, because, it is said, if we are not prepared to do that, then we are in fact occupying an illogical and argumentatively indefensible position? My answer to that is that that problem also cropped up in the last war. Exactly the same argument might then have been used. That did not prevent our doing what economic circumstances made necessary. It ought not to prevent our doing so in this war. Day by day, I receive particulars of hardship among pensioners which make very bad reading indeed. It is a shame that men who have put in anything up to 40 years in the service of the State, and have gone on pension, which itself involves a large drop in the standard of life, are now subject to an inroad into the purchasing power of their pension because of this rise of 40 per cent. in the cost of living. It is intolerable that old servants of the State should have to resort to public assistance to eke out the inadequate pension which is given to them at the end of a lifetime of service. I ask the Financial Secretary not to stick to the narrow letter of the law, but to respond, in a human and understanding way, to this very serious grievance. As regards the numbers involved, the Financial Secretary will be better informed than I am, but the total number is probably about 100,000, of old people who have been given no relief whatever since the war started. I urge the Financial Secretary to make a statement which will bring some hope to these old servants of the State in the various services I have mentioned.

Mr. Edmund Harvey: I was not aware that this very important subject was to be raised at this hour. I am sure many other Members would have wished to be present. I do not want to add to the very earnest and able appeal made by the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. W. Brown), except to say a word on behalf of superannuated teachers. Their claim is a very special one. They have, like the civil servants, given their lives in many cases to the service of their countrymen,


and they are retired on exceedingly small pensions. Many of these pensions were just enough before the war to keep them not in any sort of affluence, but in respecability. In many cases they are no longer enough for even that minimum of decent life without the greatest hardship. I would like, on behalf of that most deserving class of our fellow-citizens, to put in my plea along with that which has been made on behalf of the civil servants, and I hope that it will receive the earnest attention of the Treasury.

The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Captain Crookshank): This Debate has come on sooner than anybody expected, and I am at some disadvantage in countering the figures which the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. W. Brown) gave. I hope that if I do not specifically contradict every statement he made the House will not think I am accepting them, although, of course, I know that he made them in good faith. For example, several times in the course of his speech he expressed the opinion that the cost of living was up by 40 per cent. on the pre-war cost of living. Of course, that is not the official figure, and no amount of repetition of that figure will make it the official figure. I think the official figure is 29 per cent. I know that the whole basis on which the figure was calculated was in dispute for many years, and that just before the war there was some discussion about altering the factors which went into it; but that alteration was not, in fact, made. Therefore, I repudiate the 40 per cent. figure, although I understand the reasons which actuated the hon. Member in putting it forward.
The Financial Secretary is always, by stress of circumstances, the embodiment of the negative principle. It is my experience, having been in that office for a considerable time, that when there are concessions to be made, it is generally the Chancellor or the Prime Minister who makes them; but when it is a question of explaining exactly why something which many Members think most desirable cannot be done, the normal procedure is that I should try to give the reasons. We would all be at one, with the hon. Gentleman when he points out that there are many people, alas, in this country who are, through the circumstances of war, suffering hardship, sorrow, and disappointment,

in one way or another. One man's house is blown up, another woman's husband is killed, another man's child loses its life through a bomb, and so on. It is the whole tragedy of war that we are up against. My hon. Friend lifts one small comer of the veil by calling attention to what he considers to be the special hardship of retired civil servants. The matter has been raised in the House on several occasions, and repeatedly my right hon. Friend or I have had to say that we have not found it possible to recommend an increase in the pension rates. It is true there has been no adjustment since the war started. The hon. Member says that this is different from what happened in the last war, but that is not so; there was no adjustment in the last war.

Mr. W. Brown: I did not say that the adjustment took place during the war. I said that, as a result of the rise in prices which was caused by the last war, we had to make an adjustment in pension rates. I am urging that the Government should make that alteration in this war, without waiting for the end of it.

Captain Crookshank: I was not trying to make a debating point, but merely to clear up the question of whether there was an adjustment during the war. If the hon. Member did not say that there was, I beg his pardon. There was an adjustment after the war, when the cost-of-living figure had reached 255 per cent. of the 1914 level. That is a very different position from what we find ourselves in to-day. The hon. Member talked about an increase of 40 per cent., but I now have the correct figure, which is for September (all items) 129 per cent. of the 1939 level, that is, an increase of 29 per cent. That is very different from the 255 per cent. mentioned above. The contract which is made with the established civil servant with regard to his pension is that it is fixed with reference to conditions in force when he retires. That is well understood. There is no great evidence, I think, of stupendous hardship at present as a result of the rising cost of living. There are, no doubt, many difficult cases. On the other hand, one has to bear in mind that a great number of retired people in these days, owing to the shortage of man-power, find it possible to get one form or another of employment. It is not universally true


that because a person is pensioned he is not in a position to get any increased emoluments of which we are speaking.

Mr. Lipson: Has not a bonus been given to existing civil servants, teachers and many other classes of the population on the grounds that there has been an increase in the cost of living which is just the same for these pensioners? The argument has been valid for those who presumably are better oft, but it is not apparently valid for those who are living in reduced circumstances on retirement pensions.

Captain Crookshank: I was not prepared to discuss the whole question of Civil Service pay. These are not matters that I, in my office, could enter into lightly and on the spur of the moment, but the fact is that not every civil servant has received an increase of pay because of the cost of living. If I had time, I could give the exact position where the level comes in, but what actually has happened is that there have been certain increases granted in the lower ranks not linked up with the cost of living index. I think the hon. Gentleman was in at the earlier discussions, at which I was also present. It was really at that time done with a view to seeing that the scale was kept somewhere in relation to the scale which was available for people in outside industry in corresponding classes. I think that is really what the position was.

Mr. Cove: Is it not true to say, broadly speaking, that these increases in war bonus have been given because of abnormal conditions due to the war? These abnormal conditions are created by a number of different factors. There was an increase in wage rates and a corresponding relative decline in the value of goods and also an increase in the cost of living. It is true that the pension is given as a sort of contract at a time when a person will retire, but war conditions are entirely abnormal, and the right hon. and gallant Gentleman ought to meet that situation as far as civil servants and teachers are concerned.

Captain Crookshank: The hon. Gentleman is merely reiterating the plea. I was just trying to make the point—I was not discussing the whole question of Civil Service pay—that such rises that were made

were not directly related to any particular rise in the cost-of-living figures.

Mr. Cove: If there was no rise in the cost of living, there would be no increase.

Captain Crookshank: They were not related to that but to a variety of factors, and I think the hon. Gentleman accepts that. However, this is a side issue which we are not disposed to discuss to-day. I know that anything can be discussed on the Adjournment, but it is a little more easy for the Minister to reply if he knows what the subjects are going to be. The position is—we are all agreed in this—that there has been a rise in the cost of living and that in certain cases—I do not say universally, nor does the hon. Gentleman claim it—it must have brought hardship and difficulty to these pensioners. The question therefore arises whether this is the moment in which anything should be done to ease that position. I can give, if anyone wants them, the references to the series of questions at different times asked by various hon. Members as to whether the Government were prepared to introduce legislation which would be required to deal with this problem. The answer which has been given has been, "No, we are not prepared to introduce legislation at the present time on this subject." My right hon. Friend has based himself on the contention that the moment is certainly not opportune nor are the conditions such as to make it necessary. The increase in the cost of living which necessitated action of that kind not during but after the last war were very different from the position as it is to-day.
On the other side of the picture, one has to bear in mind that while clearly the Government have particular relations with those pensioned persons who used to be in their service, yet the Government as a whole have to take the widest view of these problems, and one has to bear in mind that the Civil Service pensioner is not the only pensioned person in this country. There are other people who through the cost of living and the decline in interest rates and so on find themselves no doubt also in a very difficult position. Imagine a couple of brothers who years ago decided to be clerks. One went into private employment and one into the service of the State. The man who has been retired perhaps even under a superannuation scheme of his firm has no prospect of getting his pension increased by anybody.


For the man who has saved and put his money, say, into house property to use the income from that as his means of livelihood, and has his house destroyed by a bomb, there is nothing that can help him in his conditions of day-to-day existence. The Government have to have, I think the House should recognise, a pretty wide view of all these small interests, and our policy, which has been discussed before and no doubt will be discussed again, and to which sufficient attention is not always paid, of trying to cope with the problem of the rise in the cost of living and the hardships of those who are on low income standards, has been a general stabilisation policy with regard to food prices and the necessities of life, and the increased control which is being exercised both by rationing and by price control of the reduced quantity of goods in the market to-day.
I would commend to hon. Members on that point in case they do not think it is a very valid one—I hope they do—to look up some remarks made by the hon. Member for East Ham, South (Mr. Barnes) when we discussed agricultural and food policies on 28th July of this year, where he gave figures, which appear in the OFFICIAL REPORT, showing the amazing result of this policy of stabilisation of food prices during this year as compared with what happened when there was no such policy in 1918, and the absence of that policy in those days was one of the factors which caused the great increase in the cost of living which made it necessary, after the war, to look into and reopen the whole question of these pensions.

Mr. Evelyn Walkden: Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman also look at the same Debate and contrast other observations by hon. Members concerning essential commodities which were not controlled in relation to the Minister's own statement, that we should all sooner or later have to become vegetarians? Observations were made by certain hon. Members directed towards the prices of cabbages, beans and other essential commodities which are in daily use and not controlled at all, but which have to make up the family budget. Pensioners can hardly benefit by the explanation the right hon. and gallant Gentleman is giving when they have to pay such high

prices for uncontrolled but essential commodities in daily need.

Captain Crookshank: I daresay that all these factors should also be taken into account, and from what the hon. Gentleman says I suspect he meant, in asking me to look up the Debate, one of his own speeches.

Mr. Walkden: No, there are others.

Captain Crookshank: But for all that the general stabilisation policy of the Government has been of enormous assistance. That is agreed, and that is one of the new factors which must be borne in mind when comparing the difference in the conditions of people now with the conditions of corresponding people in 1917–18. I cannot be expected—nor would the hon. Gentleman expect me—to agree with what he said about inflation or its desirability or all the rest of it. It is not for me to lay down any proposition, but I dare say that if it was found that the cost of living had risen by 200, 300, 500 or even 1,000 per cent., a great many things which we are not doing to-day might have to be looked at. We might have to reconsider not only this problem but others. Although there are hardships in certain cases, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has asked me to say that he does not see his way to recommend legislation for tackling the problem of pensions for civil servants. Such hardships as there are, grievous although they may be on individuals, are not of such a general character, nor has the cost of living risen to such a figure, as to make it necessary in his view, and in the view of the Government, to re-open this question at the present time.

Mr. W. Brown: I think we all agree that degrees of hardship vary enormously, but in the lower rates they are grave and acute. If the right hon. and gallant Gentleman cannot meet the whole case, cannot he draw a line, say, at £3 or £2 per week, and then give relief under that? If he cannot meet the whole case cannot he meet the worst aspect of it?

Mr. Cove: The hon. Gentleman the Member for Rugby (Mr. W. Brown) has just raised a point which I intended to try and press upon the right hon. and gallant Gentleman, than whom no one is quicker at any moment to put up a good case for the Government.

Captain Crookshank: Thank you.

Mr. Cove: It is true that subsidies have been given, but they effect everybody, whatever the range of income may be. I want to put in a plea here for teachers who are on pensions. After all, when we debated the Teachers' Pension Bill in Committee it was then laid down that pensions were deferred pay, not something coming out of the sky and through the generosity of the Treasury, but something worked for and stored up. Former teachers have stored up this deferred pay, and now they find that owing to the abnormal circumstances of the war the money has greatly reduced value. There are in the teaching profession people with pensions as low as 25s. or 30s. a week. Many of these people have written to me to point out the difficulties which they are in to-day. I hope I am not a snob, but these people have had to carry into a pension period a standard of life, a respectability, that they had to maintain while they were having salaries, and their hardship is very severe.
I ask the right hon. and gallant Gentleman whether something can be done along the lines of the bonuses which have been granted on salaries. I understand that both in public employment and, in many cases, private employment, a salary ceiling has been fixed, sometimes at £450 a year or £500. Cannot the Government fix a ceiling? I do not know whether they are prepared to receive a deputation of Members who are keenly interested in this

matter, because this question cannot be bargained and argued about in detail across the Floor of the House. I think it would be a good thing if some of us interested in the Civil Service, teachers and other organisations and associations could meet the right hon. and gallant Gentleman and put to him further details, so that we could enlist his sympathy, intelligence and ability. So, I ask whether there is any hope of a deputation being received.

Captain Crookshank: That sort of question does not require an answer from me. It is the right of any Member of Parliament at any time to approach Ministers. I do not have to give a promise that I shall or shall not see any hon. Member. All I have said is that it is the Government's decision that this is not the time to make any change or introduce any legislation on this subject.

Mr. Cove: I know that Members have the privilege of being received, but I want to put it on a more official foundation and see whether we cannot change the mind of the Government. I know that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman has stated the mind of the Government up to now, but even this Government have changed their mind before, and I am quite sure will have to change their mind again. I hope that if formal representations come from a group of Members, we may have proper facilities for putting the whole case before the Government.

Question, "That this House do now adjourn," put, and agreed to.